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Phan
11-26-2006, 04:35 AM
because it's one of the best i've seen in a few years

As I read these posts, I see how things in the community have evolved over the last ten years. Sad in a way, but it merely reflects how the music and shows have changed.

For starters, long gone are the days where the band would vary up the way they played each song from night to night. They were a band still getting their feet wet for awhile, even after acquiring national fame. Depsite how much BTCS is loved and cherished now for it's genius, when it was released a dark cloud seemed to hang over the community. Anyone who was around back then should clearly remember. It wasn't much different from the negativity surrounding Stand Up. It was a different, darker sound, and many older fans started jumping ship then. It took some time to grow into, but many of those songs have evolved into something amazing.

The BTCS tunes were just coming into their own over the winter of '98 and summer '99. Fans of all ages and degrees at the time were finally accepting them, even embracing them. Then the new album talks began, and the summer of 2000 rolled around. six new songs were debuted in two days, pretty much raw, but solid enough to give a general idea of what the new sound would be. That new sound was even darker than BTCS, with the complexity and depth of both the music and the lyrics. Pretty much ALL of those new songs were well received. I'd say better than BTCS was at launch.

And then--nothing. The tour ended, and they scrapped the album they were working on. Songs that had started gaining popularity faster than I'd seen anything since perhaps tunes found on Crash. Remember, this was around 2000, and DMB concerts were a mix of fans still united by the music. Old fans who loved the almost happy-go-lucky sounds and contemplative lyrics were coming around to the new sound, while the new DMB fans were fastening in on those darker songs as their pride, but starting to get high (figurartively speaking) off the older songs, as they explored the DMB back catalog. In my opinion, this was the peak of the band so far (and perhaps ever). Never have their shows captured a combination of interests and styles as it did in 2000. Excitement was at an all-time high.

And then Everyday. In a time when pop music was still extremely poppy (BSB, NSYNC, B.Spears, etc.) the DMB decided to make an album that negated everything they'd worked to create the past few years. If I had to think of a scenario, I'd liken it to a football game, after one team is up by two touchdowns, then commits several mistakes--resulting in a stifling and swing of momentum. It was like the DMB fanbase was building up to scream how amazing this band had become, and then was hit in the stomach before they could get it out.

To this day I don't think Everyday the album itself was the turning point, I think it was the fact it stopped all momentum the band had at the time. I remember before even hearing any clips, everyone saying WTF? Then finally...the album was released. And people went apeshit. The band lost many fans that summer--but not just for Everyday's sake. It's just the album seemed to spawn a string of bad calls and poor decisions by the band. There was a semi-willingness to give Everyday a chance live, as that was the backbone of the DMB to begin with. The band even went so far as to open in thier hometown, at Scott Stadium. That show was a bomb, as the new songs sounded sloppy and lazy. Even the classic songs played that day seemed to be half-hearted. Throughout that tour, they began playing many of the Everyday songs, but they were the same every night. WTWE is a nice tune, but it never changes. So Right was a great tune, but it never really changed. If I had it all was mediocre, but it never changed that tour. None of the new songs seemed to change at all, with the exception of Angel. And Angel seemed to be the tune the band clung to as the "jam" song from the album, much as they have this past year or so with Smooth Rider. To make matters worse, the band hald the lovely ladies join for the majority of the tour. And while they weren't overly enjoyed, most people didn't seem to have a problem with them at first. But what could have been fun soon turned into a nightmare, as the setlists became more predictable than ever. With the ladies around, certain songs automatically would see the light of day, while others never made it that far. A string of somewhat bad openers also hurt--not as much with the actual fanbase, but with the general buzz of the crowds.
Because of the mega media push by the company, Everyday became pure pop for the time, seling to fans of the Carson Daly crowd, (i.e. the teenyboppers). Not that this is bad, but it did seem to usher in a new generation of fans. It was at this time that going to the DMB show seemed to become the new hot thing in high school and college. Not for the music, but the experience.

It's four am, and I'll finish this later. Night.

TheSniper26
11-26-2006, 04:49 AM
I agree with much of that. But there's really nothing in all that that hasn't been brought up or discussed countless times. I can sum up the entire thing in one sentence:

The band appeared to be on the biggest upswing of it's career when the Everyday album ushered in a series of poor decisions and a new generation of fans.

Edit - This post sort of came off as taking a shot at you for posting that. Not the case. It's more a confusion as to why that person took such time in analyzing something that has been discussed to no end. And more importantly, something that is just frustrating and a lost cause in my opinion.

Phan
11-26-2006, 05:07 AM
I agree with much of that. But there's really nothing in all that that hasn't been brought up or discussed countless times. I can sum up the entire thing in one sentence:

The band appeared to be on the biggest upswing of it's career when the Everyday album ushered in a series of poor decisions and a new generation of fans.

Edit - This post sort of came off as taking a shot at you for posting that. Not the case. It's more a confusion as to why that person took such time in analyzing something that has been discussed to no end. And more importantly, something that is just frustrating and a lost cause in my opinion.


O no, I understand, but I've been seeing a ton of new people around here lately, and some things he said in that I feel people need to understand, Mainly the stuff about BTCS not being accepted at first. and the poor decisions 2001 ushered in. Without taking shots at the new part of the fanbase, If you got into this band post 2001, You got into this band for different reasons than most of us from pre 2001, and if you are really new and falling in love with this band, it's important to brush up on the history, So I pulled this out of the big thread Chris made there.

Phan
11-26-2006, 05:10 AM
I posted this in the big thread about the new livetrax to address the questions raised, but since I already started this thread, i'd like to make sure everyone can see and comment on my points, and can debate them with me if need be. I also addressed the points the thread starter made so I figure its appropriate here too.

that and it's 509 and I do not know why i'm not asleep :lol

I don't exactly understand what DMB management wants, Like many people have already stated, they have flooded the market in the past two years with releases, and its all the fucking same. They attempt to capitalize on "hot shows" by pushing out releases right away, and then wonder why at the end of the year people do not jump on the 5th or 6th thing coming out. The average fan just bought the "best of" album, so they are not about to buy a live album with a bunch of songs on it they do not know as well, since they are most likely new to the band, based on the turnover post 2001 and 2005.

DMB needs to learn that the direction they have taken since 2001 has totally alienated people who make them the most money, and it's obvious they are almost waiting for it to fall off. I do not exactly know what they expect. They do not put out any real decent material in close to six years minus a number of songs I can count on one hand, and the last time they have toured behind new music which has gotten the fanbase excited, they have scrapped the albums for bullshit pop trying to play off of what was currently popular in the mainstream.

Releasing a show from 1996 is awesome, and I preordered it, but what the hell do they expect from a fanbase which has undergone a 90% change since 1996, I'm reminded of the douchebag Red Sox fan I saw wearing his Fenway Park shirt at Yankee stadium over the summer, and the Yankee fan who walked up to him and went "DMB HUH? YA, THEY WERE COOL IN LIKE 1999 WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE, DOUCHEBAG, NOW THEY FUCKING SUCK" Not just the "hardcore fanbase" has dropped off, it's the entire fanbase, in their place, a bunch of new fans who could care less about the history and actually product the band is putting out.

They have pretty much secured themselves as one of the great American acts of the 90s and early 00s, even if the music has slipped significantly. The problem is, Since 2001, there is always going to be that asterisck next to their name and people are always going to talk about how ridiculous and money hungry they became. Now, I understand DMB is a business, and they need to make money, but look at how shoddy the operation is run; Warehouse packages going out almost a year late, the quality of the releases coming in the mail being damaged and fucked up. If any real business tried to operate this way, they would not last more than a year, it's ridiculous. One wonders if they are trying to cut corners, or if they are just cheap and inept. I really can not see either one being possible as we are talking about a multi million dollar organization here, if they can not take the necessary steps to assure at least some kind of pleasure or decent service for their fans who spend the most money on them and who are dedicated the most (warehouse), things are going to get worse and worse for them.

DMB has had months, weeks, streaks of shows where they have had the old fire, and brought the feeling of mid 90s DMB back, but it has not lasted, weather it be laziness, long tours, or something behind the scenes that we do not need to address on fan sites, they need to figure out what the fuck they want to do, because the overall fanbase, and especially the hardcore fanbase, is dropping like flies, and they have already used "rare songs" and bad ass openers to keep those of us here around a few more years, but all the #34s and Bela Fleck and the Flecktones are not going to keep the cashcow going for years to come, the only thing that will is good new material, because while DMB has their place in rock history, they are no U2, they are no Aerosmith, and they are definatly no Rolling Stones. So they better get back to what took them to this point, or else they will fade away as fast as they rose to the top

TheSniper26
11-26-2006, 05:18 AM
If you got into this band post 2001, You got into this band for different reasons than most of us from pre 2001.

This probably the biggest problem with the fanbase as a whole. It's divided into 2 factions and neither side understands the other at all. The older generation needs to realize that the new fans are here to stay and if they like the new material, then fine. Their enjoyment isn't hurting anybody. But on the flip side, the newer fans need to understand that the older generation is becoming very disappointed with something they once loved. There's a mentality sometimes that if you don't lap up everything the band does, you're "bitching" or being spoiled. But the truth is, any negativity just stems from pure disappointment. It's not as though anyone of that older generation wouldn't rather be really into the current state of the band. Of course they would. But it's just not the same. You can't fake it. There's no point.

Phan
11-26-2006, 05:19 AM
This probably the biggest problem with the fanbase as a whole. It's divided into 2 factions and neither side understands the other at all. The older generation needs to realize that the new fans are here to stay and if they like the new material, then fine. Their enjoyment isn't hurting anybody. But on the flip side, the newer fans need to understand that the older generation is becoming very disappointed with something they once loved. There's a mentality sometimes that if you don't lap up everything the band does, you're "bitching" or being spoiled. But the truth is, any negativity just stems from pure disappointment. It's not as though anyone of that older generation wouldn't rather be really into the current state of the band. Of course they would. But it's just not the same. You can't fake it. There's no point.

:upyours :upyours post more

bigtrain21
11-26-2006, 06:06 AM
I really enjoyed this post from that thread because it made me understand where some people are coming from. I am sort of in a unique situation in that while I started being a fan around 2000 or so (someone loaned me Red Rocks 95' and it was all over for me) I never found out about the message boards until 2005 and didn't start posting until late 2005. I didn't even know that you could get shows on dreamingtree.org. I was shocked as hell when I found all sorts of stuff about the band I had no idea of and good versions of old songs that I had never heard of. I was in the dark because while I was getting everything released I had no idea about the SBD's from the first few years of the band and the D&T shows that you can get that sound just as good as Luther College just to name a couple. I was blown away at first and that is what I spent a lot of my time doing was catching up on lost time by downloading songs I had no idea even existed. Not because I wasn't really into the band, I had every single studio and live release you could buy in stores plus all the Live trax and the two box sets(Gorge & Redrocks) , but because I didn't even know to look for it.

The thing that really shocked me was the negativity around the band from people that post on the message boards. I truly thought that people would be really happy with the band considering how much stuff they have given us over the years. The amount of quality songs they have put out is amazing. I personally didn't like Stand Up when I listened to it but I wasn't angry with the band when I heard it. It seems like people won't just give them a mulligan or two. Metallica was one of my favorite bands for awhile, but I absolutely can't stand almost every song after the Black album. I still give them credit for the 5 albums they put out before that and don't begrudge the people that still like the stuff they put out after that.

His post helped me understand why some people feel the way they do about the band and maybe be more understanding about the negativity... I personally am not down on the band, but I respect that some people are. I don't get the people that come here claiming to hate the band with a passion because I can't understand why they would continue to post about a band they hate. I see a difference between hating the band and being disappointed with the direction they are going and being negative about it. I can respect the feelings of the latter....

TheSniper26
11-26-2006, 06:23 AM
His post helped me understand why some people feel the way they do about the band and maybe be more understanding about the negativity... I personally am not down on the band, but I respect that some people are. I don't get the people that come here claiming to hate the band with a passion because I can't understand why they would continue to post about a band they hate. I see a difference between hating the band and being disappointed with the direction they are going and being negative about it. I can respect the feelings of the latter....

First off, solid post. Second, as far as the difference between disappointment and hate, I agree. There is a difference. But the thing is, I think the fans who "hate" the band for whatever reason, are few and far between. They definitely don't represent the true feelings of all of the older generation of fans. Also, I think newer fans have a tendency to get very defensive of the band. And it's natural to get defensive of something you're really into. So I understand it. But at the same time, it seems to cloud the fact that not everybody is happy with the what they're doing. So any harsh criticism is immediately cast aside as some sort of "hate" or bashing. When in fact, it's nothing more than a fan who has been with the band a long time and has expectations that, in their opinion, the band doesn't reach anymore. And that's disappointing. For them, it's like watching an aging athlete they were a fan of. You still call yourself a fan because of all they've given. And you still hope for that moment they're going to pull off something great again. But the reality is that it's just not happening anymore. You don't resent them for it, but you resent the situation and that it's happening.

Nova Scotia
11-26-2006, 08:48 AM
this whole scenario is the basis for every debate over the last 6 years. i remember hearing BTCS for the first time and i can remember thinking, man this is nothing like crash. at the time, many of my friends that were moderate DMB fans turned the other way and went back to counting crows and eventually into bands like (ugh) creed. DMB came out of the box further and started making music that nobody else had the inspiration to make. since ED, the fans (me) have wanted DMB to be their own prodigal son. i don't know if it's the marketing, the younger fan-base, or the state of music today (outcast and black eyed peas changed much of how popular is created and viewed today), but every return of the band is hyped up by management and has been a let down to the people who are pre- ED, BS fans. i can't sit here and say that all songs on albums post ED are bad (so right, FTT, and louisiana bayou are songs that i like hearing live), but the mood is different. dave saying the SU songs were rushed shows the attitude towards the studio work of late

the 06 tunes are still debated (with the exception of shotgun), but i'm are fearful that they will go the way of the 04 tunes. the live shows are still great for me (i'm not a guy that goes to 10 shows a year- never have due to geographical circumstances), and it's been said over and over, but i think that this time is do or die for many fans. and the worst part of it all is that we all know the potential that this band has. for the most part, i understand where the negativity and the positivity comes from. there will never be another BTCS or LWS type material. all i want, and i'm sure many are the same, is the passion from all band members to return. maybe i'm wrong and i just haven't heard it in the last little while.

flyersfanatic02
11-26-2006, 09:29 AM
Here is my question; what do you think is the ratio of pre-Everyday fans to post-Everyday fans? (Since we can mostly agree that 2001/Everday is the division between generations.) To be honest as someone who has followed the band since 97 I feel like I am in the minority of the fan base anymore.

Case in point, and I know it's probably not the best example, but C'Ville N2 the opening of Seek Up it seemed as though I was the only one around me that was excited, I was dumbfounded,

I just think that the old fans who have been around for a while and enjoy the pre-Everday music are slowly dwindling and we see the band catering to the majority,

CvillePong
11-26-2006, 11:16 AM
Here is my question; what do you think is the ratio of pre-Everyday fans to post-Everyday fans? (Since we can mostly agree that 2001/Everday is the division between generations.) To be honest as someone who has followed the band since 97 I feel like I am in the minority of the fan base anymore.

Case in point, and I know it's probably not the best example, but C'Ville N2 the opening of Seek Up it seemed as though I was the only one around me that was excited, I was dumbfounded,

I just think that the old fans who have been around for a while and enjoy the pre-Everday music are slowly dwindling and we see the band catering to the majority,

Older fans lose some interest. If you've been going to shows in the 90's, there's a good chance that life has somewhat gotten into the way of being able to hit as many shows as possible.

I'm 26 and feel like one of the older folks out there. Fan base is younger than I am now, but it's only because I'm pretty sure I got older. The band plays the newer stuff because its newer, and playing Ants over 1000 times gets a little old. Whether we like it or not, its got to be more gradifying to explore newer songs and what you can do with it as an artist.


But, that still doesn't mean I want to hear Dreamgirl.

Mersh
11-26-2006, 12:03 PM
Here is my question; what do you think is the ratio of pre-Everyday fans to post-Everyday fans? (Since we can mostly agree that 2001/Everday is the division between generations.) To be honest as someone who has followed the band since 97 I feel like I am in the minority of the fan base anymore.

Case in point, and I know it's probably not the best example, but C'Ville N2 the opening of Seek Up it seemed as though I was the only one around me that was excited, I was dumbfounded,

I just think that the old fans who have been around for a while and enjoy the pre-Everday music are slowly dwindling and we see the band catering to the majority,


I feel in the minority as well, but I think a lot of post ED folks don't have the same reaction to the post ED material that older fans do. This doesn't mean older fans are better, but newer folks don't seem to mind a lot of the stuff that a lot of older fans can't stand.

goose21
11-26-2006, 12:41 PM
Awesome post btw...It is my opinion that if we want an album even comprable to the first 3, or 4 including the LWS, someone needs to give the band a kick in the ass and it starts with the record company. The band has gotten way too complacent over the past couple of years but there is still hope, see Some Devil. Sometimes it seems like Dave really is just in the studio in spirit with the band and then when he gets into the studio alone the fire is back. I think the band really needs to get a new producer that isn't afraid to say no. Batson was a yes man for the Stand Up sessions. Two names come to mind for me. One of them, Daniel Lanois, has been mentioned all the time around the boards. The other one hasn't for some reason and that is Nigel Godrich. I mean he produced two of Dave's idols, Radiohead and Paul McCartney.

FiddySpence
11-26-2006, 12:45 PM
while being well stated, it's nothing new. we all know where the division is, we all know where the band's head has been since 2001 (album heavy promotion tour, "classics" tour that they eventually get tired of around the second leg, another album heavy promotion tour) basically going through the motions.

timh.
11-26-2006, 01:05 PM
i really want the next album to be good... but i have no faith in batson's ability to draw solid music from the band.

any word from the studio on what's happening? is batson there yet?

malachite00
11-26-2006, 01:52 PM
I'm not sure how to quote the first post (since its a quote itself), but in regards to this:

>>>>
For starters, long gone are the days where the band would vary up the way they played each song from night to night. They were a band still getting their feet wet for awhile, even after acquiring national fame. Depsite how much BTCS is loved and cherished now for it's genius, when it was released a dark cloud seemed to hang over the community. Anyone who was around back then should clearly remember. It wasn't much different from the negativity surrounding Stand Up. It was a different, darker sound, and many older fans started jumping ship then. It took some time to grow into, but many of those songs have evolved into something amazing.
>>>>

I remember this time, and totally agree that its similar to today. I was a huge fan between 95-98, and went to every show I could. Then when BTCS came out, I didn't like it. It was dark and at the time I found it depressing. Many people on the usenet group I subscribed to felt the same way, and a lot of us moved on. We wanted stuff that sounded like UTTAD or maybe Crash.

I didn't see a single show from mid-98 to 2003. Then my husband gave me Folsom Field in 2003, and I was totally back into the band. Now, after SU and Everyday, I totally appreciate BTCS. I consider it their best recording today, even though it sat on my shelf unplayed for about 5 years.

Now when I go to shows, I feel really sorry for the new fans around me. They are actually hoping to hear DG or WAYG. At SB night 2, I couldn't believe the people around me weren't excited to hear Cry Freedom. At Shoreline, people talked during Last Stop and didn't even pay attention. Its really strange to me, but at the same time, its better for the band if they do acquire new fans, and I want them to keep touring so I guess you just have to accept it. If they can make this new album as good as the summer songs then its worth it.

bidroc
11-26-2006, 02:25 PM
It can't be said enough, that somehow DMB knows that the older fans have dropped off. So in turn, they have to change their game, which started happening like clockwork around 2000. All those Gen X fans that are now age 28+, are married, dont care about music or they go see bands like Widespread Panic a few times a year and whatever their wife wants to see. "DMB is so been there done that and its not the same since college." But the funny thing is, I still see 30+ age couples at DMB shows and they give me the same response every time. "She wanted to see what the DMB is up to these days, so I went" I love sitting by these people cause we end up talking about other bands and world issues.

The younger millenial fans simply do not remember before the Internet, don't remember when there was a string of good music in the 90's when Pearl Jam, Nirvana, and other grunge/alternative acts were popular. Same time DMB was getting their traction in the mid-nineties. So with saying that, their standards for good music are lower. This is why you have fans that do not recognize the fact that Stand Up is garbage. And they think things like AB intro and Louisiana Bayou are steller songs. They are compared to the bubble gum punk and crap that is on the radio today.

The younger gens embrace DMB because of things they heard about the band in the 90's and how it is cool to attend the shows. These people do have older siblings, you know that played UTTAD, when they were like 10. You see the douche bag in the Fenway shirt or the Stand Up 2005 tour shirt strutting his stuff, cause he is being 'different' than his douche bag friend who likes punk and rap.

But even though DMB has been making mediocre albums and material last 5 years, except for the 10 songs you can count on both hands, they still manage to NOT become totally popular among regular music listening folks. I think this is the good thing that always stays the same. They are not U2 or Coldplay. Dave is not on the cover of Time magazine, nor do they do duets with a 'has been' Green Day.

And I agree with the poster about the biggest problem with the band besides trying to catch the pop wave, is their lack of consistency within tours. Along with the fact that the board fans, mainly Ants, take the whole DMB experience wayyyyy to far.

slugmother
11-26-2006, 04:50 PM
while most all of that is true, this just isn't:

"For starters, long gone are the days where the band would vary up the way they played each song from night to night."

i'm no fan#41, but from what i've heard this "variation" they used to do is a myth

Tambourine Man
11-26-2006, 04:56 PM
while most all of that is true, this just isn't:

"For starters, long gone are the days where the band would vary up the way they played each song from night to night."

i'm no fan#41, but from what i've heard this "variation" they used to do is a myth

I'm sorry, but they have way too many songs to be doing this. They just don't feel comfortable changing the way they play songs from night to night, so I don't blame them for not doing it. I'd much rather them nail songs and bring back older ones than focus on trying to change up performances from night to night.

Even still, they did it with Jimi this year, but all people did was bitch about it.

FishMonkeyMan
11-26-2006, 05:04 PM
i agree with most everything said in this thread, even if i do enjoy newer dmb material, however, dmb has been too big of a part of my life for me to ever see there being a point where i wont listen constantly and continue to go to shows. maybe that makes me a part of the problem, and if it does i dont really care.

im older, the band is older. i dont expect them to be doing the same style of material they were doing ten years ago anymore then i expect myself to be interested in the same things i was ten years ago. stand up had some really good and meaningful songs to me, and some incredibly awful ones, and i felt the same way about ED.

it would be nice if they put out something that i could have as much of an attachment to as the albums they put out ten years ago when i was in high school, but truthfully i dont know if i had the appreciation for them at the time that i thought i did. if they don't, that doesnt negate for me what they have done.

ten years from now i will still be going to shows regardless of what they bring in to the fold for the same reason i do now, its a part of my growing up that im not ready to say goodbye to. whatever job im doing, whatever city im living in, whatever friends i have at the time, the music is a constant that i enjoy having in my life... so go ahead and rip me for feeling that way, i dont care.

denali
11-26-2006, 05:43 PM
dmb kinda jumped the shark for me when they appeared (awkwardly, i might add) on TRL. I figure some of my disappointment at their current direction might have a bit to do with me as a changed person as well, different priorities over the past 12 years. But when I listen to a 1995 WWYS jam and what passes for a jam these days, I am disappointed. It's strange at shows too when the band (and I) get older, but much of the fanbase is still 18-21. I pretty much concede to the new fans though and live in the past. Allah, jesus and vishnu bless the fact that there have been tapers since the beginning :(

bbycrei
11-26-2006, 06:49 PM
I really wish we had some message board files left from around BTCS, I would really love to read all the respones to the album.

malachite00
11-26-2006, 06:55 PM
I really wish we had some message board files left from around BTCS, I would really love to read all the respones to the album.

Have you checked out the Minarets archive on dmbalmanac? Its much earlier than BTCS, but its really interesting to read. I love how people posted in early '95 about hearing Ants too much as an encore, and really wanting to hear Halloween more. :)

bbycrei
11-26-2006, 07:22 PM
Have you checked out the Minarets archive on dmbalmanac? Its much earlier than BTCS, but its really interesting to read. I love how people posted in early '95 about hearing Ants too much as an encore, and really wanting to hear Halloween more. :)

Yah I do remember reading some posts where the same arguments come back over and over, varrying setlists, tennie bopper crowds, I got a laugh out of it.

Nova Scotia
11-26-2006, 07:29 PM
I really wish we had some message board files left from around BTCS, I would really love to read all the respones to the album.
check out the tour archives on nancies. that will give you an idea.

bsan83
11-26-2006, 10:46 PM
Great thread with some real well thoughtout posts. :upyours

All I can add is that it's dead on that they lost their positive momentum in '01, and haven't gained it back since, and it seems like they know it just as much as we do. And they've tried twice now to do "classics tours" where they trot out a bunch of old favorites to excite the old fans, and it lasts for a month before they get tired of it.

They need to stop caring about pleasing separately the different factions of the fanbase. They need to only concern themselves with one thing, and that's making and supporting new music on the level we know they're capable of, with thought-provoking lyrics, interesting song structures, creative guitar riffs, and showcasing the 6 amazing musicians we know are in this band. It's going to take hard work and they might not like each other as they're writing those songs, but in the end, that's what's going to keep DMB going if they so want to.

dubsnevets
11-26-2006, 10:59 PM
check out the tour archives on nancies. that will give you an idea.

Yeah, I remember a while ago I came across the posts from the people that just got back from 12/8/98 and reading that a number of them were actually irritated that they closed the encore with The Last Stop.

oregon.donor
11-26-2006, 11:14 PM
It can't be said enough, that somehow DMB knows that the older fans have dropped off. So in turn, they have to change their game, which started happening like clockwork around 2000. All those Gen X fans that are now age 28+, are married, dont care about music or they go see bands like Widespread Panic a few times a year and whatever their wife wants to see. "DMB is so been there done that and its not the same since college." But the funny thing is, I still see 30+ age couples at DMB shows and they give me the same response every time. "She wanted to see what the DMB is up to these days, so I went" I love sitting by these people cause we end up talking about other bands and world issues.

The younger millenial fans simply do not remember before the Internet, don't remember when there was a string of good music in the 90's when Pearl Jam, Nirvana, and other grunge/alternative acts were popular. Same time DMB was getting their traction in the mid-nineties. So with saying that, their standards for good music are lower. This is why you have fans that do not recognize the fact that Stand Up is garbage. And they think things like AB intro and Louisiana Bayou are steller songs. They are compared to the bubble gum punk and crap that is on the radio today.

The younger gens embrace DMB because of things they heard about the band in the 90's and how it is cool to attend the shows. These people do have older siblings, you know that played UTTAD, when they were like 10. You see the douche bag in the Fenway shirt or the Stand Up 2005 tour shirt strutting his stuff, cause he is being 'different' than his douche bag friend who likes punk and rap.

But even though DMB has been making mediocre albums and material last 5 years, except for the 10 songs you can count on both hands, they still manage to NOT become totally popular among regular music listening folks. I think this is the good thing that always stays the same. They are not U2 or Coldplay. Dave is not on the cover of Time magazine, nor do they do duets with a 'has been' Green Day.

And I agree with the poster about the biggest problem with the band besides trying to catch the pop wave, is their lack of consistency within tours. Along with the fact that the board fans, mainly Ants, take the whole DMB experience wayyyyy to far.

Older fans drop off because their lives change. Everyone that I used to go to Cville with in the early/mid 90s is married and has at least two kids and a house and a mortgage and just dont have it in them to do 9 shows a year anymore. We do maybe two, and then the rest I do with people I meet on the boards.

It made sense to go to the ATM some afternoon and take out the last $20 and head down to Cville and see DMB or Shannon Worrell and then drive back to school that night, but now thats the sh1t those goofy young kids do...

BeQuietAndDrive
11-26-2006, 11:17 PM
check out the tour archives on nancies. that will give you an idea.

Reviews for 12.3.98:

A little dissapointed with the setlist and the crowd, but there were some nice jams tonight on some of these old faves.

I thought the show started off great, and was very surprised with the first four songs. But as the show continued it seemed to loose its energy. Leroi did not seem very in to it at all. I was very surprised with the song selection. I overheard many (teeny bopper, skanktop wearing girls(that's for you Mike)) concert goers (I don't consider them as fans) whinning because they did not play many songs heard on the radio. Overeall I was not very impressed with this show.

Reviews for 12.7.98:

Halloween. What an awful end to a concert! They didn't even jam it out at all. This song's alright, but any of the 4 above songs would have closed out one of the great concerts in history. Instead, "what might have been." Pretty much everyone I talked to in the parking lot after the concert shared my view on Halloween as the closer. An encore can make or break a show - in this case, it served as prevention of greatness.

Reviews for 12.8.98:

I am sorry, but this was the worst DMB concert i have and ever will be to. Can somebody say COMMERCIAL!!!!!! It sucked, in my opinion. I went with seven of my friends including my girlfrined of which I love more than anything on the face of this earth, and they all loved it. But the fact of the matter is that they are not true DMB fans. My girlfrined Michele is the closest of them all. The only good things were the opening with Seek Up, and then a few songs later Jimi Thing. Rapunzel was not bad, but the rest suck. I was so upset with the setlist I wanted to leave! Can you believe it?! I know it seems a little extreme but if you are a true fan of Dave, than look at this list...it sucked. I am sorry if I have offended any one out there who was ther e and loved this concert, therefore feel free to Email me and tell me what was actually good about this show. You kind of figured that this being Bela's last show it would be incredible, right...wrong. Once again I am s! orry if i offended anyone, Jay....DMBoudge@aol

Not one of the best DMB shows for me. If I were a teenie bopper or loved radio songs then I would say it kicked ass. The venue kinda sucked. The boys had alot of energy and Tim Reynolds was amazing. I was Dissapointed that Bela was only out there for a few songs. Nice to see Jeff Coffin on #41. Highlights for me.....Butch Taylor had a great improv after Seekup and broke into the theme song to Charlie Brown. Bela came out for DDTW, left, had a kick ass #41 solo; very long, Left, came back for the Last Stop. Again way too many radio songs. I would say the best song that they played was the Last Stop. Many people were dissapointed with the encore song because it has a very long and developing outro. I think Butch was playing something for Bach that fit into the song. Tim Kicked so much ass. He had a great solo on #41 and I'll back You up. Well that's all there is for now. I can't wait for the Dave and Tim shows. I only hope that I can get tickets.

Anyway, other than the encore I would've said 9 out of 10, w/ it 7 / 10, and that's from a huge fan of the Last Stop, just not to mellow out an ending

I am not naive enough to think these types of reviews were the norm, nor do I believe the two eras totally comparable. But this band's fans have always been fickle.

bsan83
11-26-2006, 11:19 PM
Older fans drop off because their lives change. Everyone that I used to go to Cville with in the early/mid 90s is married and has at least two kids and a house and a mortgage and just dont have it in them to do 9 shows a year anymore. We do maybe two, and then the rest I do with people I meet on the boards.

It made sense to go to the ATM some afternoon and take out the last $20 and head down to Cville and see DMB or Shannon Worrell and then drive back to school that night, but now thats the sh1t those goofy young kids do...

Yeah, people certainly move on, and following a band certainly (at least it had better) takes a back seat to real life. But the problem is, the turnover isn't as strong now as it was previously, for the reasons that I think are laid out very well in this thread.

NiCK Crush
11-26-2006, 11:43 PM
it was a good post, but i feel like it basically just stated the obvious :\

-NiCK

greykitkat36
11-27-2006, 12:14 AM
This is a great thread! :upyours I'm interested in reading more.

captainbluntmofo
11-27-2006, 12:59 AM
Older fans drop off because their lives change.

True. Some people regardless of the quality of the music would not go to shows anymore and I repsect DMB for trying to play the best songs they have but they need to make a real thoughout album this time.

bidroc
11-27-2006, 02:04 AM
Reviews for 12.3.98:



Reviews for 12.7.98:



Reviews for 12.8.98:



I am not naive enough to think these types of reviews were the norm, nor do I believe the two eras totally comparable. But this band's fans have always been fickle.

They put way too much expectation on going to a show thats not THAT different from show to show, even going back to 93. The main difference after 1998, is that ROI, Boyd and Dave have not been playing up to their capability. Its not just the crappy material cluttering the setlists. And this could be due to getting older, not caring or just getting bored. It goes back to the argument that they have never been a jamband. But yet in 2006, we see classics like Two Step, Jimi Thing, Seek Up getting longer and longer. Over the years, the fans have just come to love the guys and what they bring to the stage. It comes down to that excited feeling most of us get 10 minutes before they take the stage. Only setting us up for disappointment...

Fans keep waiting and waiting to hear this unimaginable energy and shocking setlists that are not new material heavy and bring out re-worked Get in Line's, People People or maybe 3 Dave solo songs before the main set. Ever since the fan could make his voice heard on the Internet, there has been this mysterious manufactured idea of the ultimate show that resembles something from 1993. But somehow people forget DMB does not play to <5000 crowds anymore, but 25,000+ crowds.

TheSniper26
11-27-2006, 03:27 AM
Ever since the fan could make his voice heard on the Internet, there has been this mysterious manufactured idea of the ultimate show that resembles something from 1993. But somehow people forget DMB does not play to <5000 crowds anymore, but 25,000+ crowds.

Why should crowd size matter though? They are only playing to 25,000 now because of what they did for the smaller crowds in the first place.

Also, there is a big difference between wanting to hear an "ultimate" show, and simply not wanting to hear the same set 20-30 songs every summer. One is very unrealistic, the other is not. I don't go into a show expecting to always hear Drive In Drive Out. Or LIOG. Or 34. That would be frankly kind of stupid. But at the same time, I shouldn't be able to narrow the opener, closer and encore down to a handful of songs before I even enter the venue.

As for the "they're not a jamband" argument, well I agree. They aren't. And to be honest, I'm thankful for that. There have been few bands that could pull off being a full blown "jam" band(Phish, the dead, etc). But outside of those few, most jam bands are mind numbing. So in that respect, I'm thankful DMB isn't one. But there's a difference between being a "jam" band and having spontaneity. DMB used to have spontaneity and electricity on stage. You felt like you were seeing something nobody else would ever see again. Not because it was their best show. But because it was unique and you felt like they wouldn't do it the exact same way the next night. It had a personal feeling to it. Now everything, right down to the bands solos, is so run of the mill and planned that it has almost a manufactured or processed feel to it. And for a lot of us who have been with the band a long time, it's grown tedious. Which to me, is just disappointing more than anything.

FishMonkeyMan
11-27-2006, 03:30 AM
ive got to tell you, i have alot of old shows and ive been around for a long time and i really dont hear that much of a difference in any of the big songs from one show to the next in the same time period. this spontaneity and improvisation they allegedly used to have is really being blown out of proportion.

TheSniper26
11-27-2006, 03:57 AM
this spontaneity and improvisation they allegedly used to have is really being blown out of proportion.

I think some have different definitions of spontaneous than others. To me, spontaneity doesn't necessarily have to be some whole new "jam" or section to a song. Or even some rare song. It can be something as small as taking a solo in a more unconventional direction. Or perhaps opening or closing with, not a rare song, but one that isn't used in that spot very much. Or have a segue between songs that isn't necessarily a planned, standard segue(astb>Too Much, PM>Satellite). Or adding a small piece of music as an intro to a song. Those things really aren't hard to do but they can change the entire complexion of a show. And regardless of what side of this argument you are on, there's no way anybody could deny that DMB was much more inclined to do those things years ago.

slugmother
11-27-2006, 08:30 AM
yeah, maybe in like... '94. that kind of stuff definitely did not happen in, say, '97.

i really think the "only" legitimate complaint is their attention to songwriting quality, and i say "only" because that's really the second most major complaint you can make for a band.

the first, of course, being playing in tune, boyd :p (although he has been doing much, much better. i'm still mostly bitter about '98, and 99% of all live performances of The Stone)

TheSniper26
11-27-2006, 09:06 AM
yeah, maybe in like... '94. that kind of stuff definitely did not happen in, say, '97.

I don't think I necessarily agree with that. But even if that were true, it still doesn't overlook the fact that it's something band has shown themselves capable of doing and, for whatever reason, decided to stop.

i really think the "only" legitimate complaint is their attention to songwriting quality, and i say "only" because that's really the second most major complaint you can make for a band.


You don't think the fact that we can pretty much predict the opener, closer and encore is a legitimate complaint? I'm not trying to argue, I'm genuinely asking... I definitely think it is. And honestly, it's not even just those spots anymore. DMB has becoem so accustomed to sticking to a certain group of songs every tour that about 80% of the setlist each night is pretty predictable. And I'd say 80% is a pretty conservative estimate at that.

slugmother
11-27-2006, 09:34 AM
no, i just don't think it's a new complaint. all of the sets in '97 are essentially identical - the fact that they do have more songs now doesn't mean that their lack of variation is any worse now than it used to be.

i agree, they should switch it up more, just because they can. but i don't think that it's really a major thing to worry about. it's different from the jamband crowd than from the, i don't know, rock/indie/whatever crowd - no other band i listen to regularly changes up sets much live, whereas that's what jambands thrive on.

i'm always more concerned with the quality of songwriting and performance than whether or not they play two step (a good song) every other night.

Mongu
11-27-2006, 10:49 AM
I know DMB fans have been having this same discussion for several years now, but this thread has been great. I hope my post doesn't make a mess of it.


I've been a huge fan since 99. I will always be a huge fan of this band for whatever reason, but I do agree that the last few albums and tours have been subpar as a whole. Looking back, it seemed the nose dive in creativity both in the studio and on the road started with the LWS debacle. I have always thought that the way that album leaked and spread really may have turned the band against the "hardcore" fanbase. To me it was obvious when BS came out. It really seemed to be a half hearted effort. I think the band just really stopped caring about giving 100% after that. Couple this with everything else that has been mentioned in this thread and I think we have a pretty good overall explanation of their decline.

bidroc
11-27-2006, 11:14 AM
Why should crowd size matter though? They are only playing to 25,000 now because of what they did for the smaller crowds in the first place.

Also, there is a big difference between wanting to hear an "ultimate" show, and simply not wanting to hear the same set 20-30 songs every summer. One is very unrealistic, the other is not. I don't go into a show expecting to always hear Drive In Drive Out. Or LIOG. Or 34. That would be frankly kind of stupid. But at the same time, I shouldn't be able to narrow the opener, closer and encore down to a handful of songs before I even enter the venue.

As for the "they're not a jamband" argument, well I agree. They aren't. And to be honest, I'm thankful for that. There have been few bands that could pull off being a full blown "jam" band(Phish, the dead, etc). But outside of those few, most jam bands are mind numbing. So in that respect, I'm thankful DMB isn't one. But there's a difference between being a "jam" band and having spontaneity. DMB used to have spontaneity and electricity on stage. You felt like you were seeing something nobody else would ever see again. Not because it was their best show. But because it was unique and you felt like they wouldn't do it the exact same way the next night. It had a personal feeling to it. Now everything, right down to the bands solos, is so run of the mill and planned that it has almost a manufactured or processed feel to it. And for a lot of us who have been with the band a long time, it's grown tedious. Which to me, is just disappointing more than anything.

The reason its different for bigger crowds is adjustment in sound levels to project for a bigger crowd farther away. This effects the rawness and "electricity" of the sound, which is why we don't get that vibe hardly anymore. Its a sense of intimacy vs. playing for the masses.

Another example of this is U2 at Red Rocks in 1983 playing to a smaller crowd. Their sound had a lot more energy than you see on the Elevation tour, playing to 40,000+, even though their playing has not changed much.

Thrawn
11-27-2006, 02:56 PM
I completely agree with Slugmother.

I think that this "spontaneity" and variation that everyone is saying used to happen is off the mark, I think it was just that there were (relatively) new songs that were good that got played. Right now, all we have is old good songs and new bad songs, with the exception of a handful...and that handful (like the 04 songs) basically no one complains about when they play really often. It's not that the band has lost any "spontaneity", it's that, with the amount of variation they've always put into it, Too Much or Jimi Thing or Two Step or whatever were more interesting two years after they were written than ten or fifteen.

Good new material is the only thing this band is lacking. If that happened, all the other complaints would be, at worst, mild annoyances.

bidroc
11-27-2006, 02:58 PM
I completely agree with Slugmother.

I think that this "spontaneity" and variation that everyone is saying used to happen is off the mark, I think it was just that there were (relatively) new songs that were good that got played. Right now, all we have is old good songs and new bad songs, with the exception of a handful...and that handful (like the 04 songs) basically no one complains about when they play really often. It's not that the band has lost any "spontaneity", it's that, with the amount of variation they've always put into it, Too Much or Jimi Thing or Two Step or whatever were more interesting two years after they were written than ten or fifteen.

Good new material is the only thing this band is lacking. If that happened, all the other complaints would be, at worst, mild annoyances.


Yes, the biggest complaint still remains that sets still have ED and SU songs with the exception of AB intro going into something cool. The couple of shows that have been played in last 2 years that have no ED and/or SU are much more enjoyable to play through.

ggies
11-27-2006, 03:19 PM
I agree with them needing some time off. I was thinking about this though....

What about if the next tour they would have say only 30 shows. They might loss money then, but the next tour people would want to see the band b/c they couldn't last tour.....the whole supply and demand thing.

Take the band away for awhile and people will be wanting to see them......unless they go back and the band is only playing SU crap and the new album stuff(if its not good) hahahaha.

Mersh
11-27-2006, 03:20 PM
I completely agree with Slugmother.

I think that this "spontaneity" and variation that everyone is saying used to happen is off the mark, I think it was just that there were (relatively) new songs that were good that got played. Right now, all we have is old good songs and new bad songs, with the exception of a handful...and that handful (like the 04 songs) basically no one complains about when they play really often. It's not that the band has lost any "spontaneity", it's that, with the amount of variation they've always put into it, Too Much or Jimi Thing or Two Step or whatever were more interesting two years after they were written than ten or fifteen.

Good new material is the only thing this band is lacking. If that happened, all the other complaints would be, at worst, mild annoyances.

good new material and to ease up on the same 30 tunes that become the core of every tour.

zaphod!
11-27-2006, 03:35 PM
this was very well said, because it pretty much sums up exactly how i felt:

"It was like the DMB fanbase was building up to scream how amazing this band had become, and then was hit in the stomach before they could get it out."