PDA

View Full Version : Do any of you honestly think that...


Dheibs
11-26-2006, 08:37 PM
Dave's songwriting has improved since BTCS? Ive never understood the hype on the 04' songs. Yes the music was there but the lyrics werent so much. The songs from the 06' sessions are decent but the lyrics are still not there. Granted, Break Free has much potential in my opinion, so does Idea of You. But everything is lacking in lyrics. The point of a song is to get a message across. The listener should be able relate to the song in some way and if it doesn't, the songwriting is weak overall. Honestly, if Dave decides to write some lyrics and really think about them and make them make sense, this band will be reborn. The creativity to write music is there, but Dave is bringing himself and the band down with him.

dsera
11-26-2006, 08:39 PM
Dave's songwriting has improved since BTCS? Ive never understood the hype on the 04' songs. Yes the music was there but the lyrics werent so much. The songs from the 06' sessions are decent but the lyrics are still not there. Granted, Break Free has much potential in my opinion, so does Idea of You. But everything is lacking in lyrics. The point of a song is to get a message across. The listener should be able relate to the song in some way and if it doesn't, the songwriting is weak overall. Honestly, if Dave decides to write some lyrics and really think about them and make them make sense, this band will be reborn. The creativity to write music is there, but Dave is bringing himself and the band down with him.
There are some GREAT lyrically written songs since then, You Never Know topping the list. I'd put that up above half the songs ever written.

timh.
11-26-2006, 08:40 PM
i think dave is struggling in both areas...

alexbunke
11-26-2006, 08:42 PM
It's not productive to compare '98 Dave to present-day Dave.

Dheibs
11-26-2006, 08:43 PM
It's not productive to compare '98 Dave to present-day Dave.

why not, most of you seem to think they should be as good as they were back then

dsera
11-26-2006, 08:44 PM
why not, most of you seem to think they should be as good as they were back then
Should be but are not and never will be. That's the point of him saying it's not productive.

orbs35
11-26-2006, 08:47 PM
The point of a song is to get a message across.

i'd say Hunger and Can't Stop get across a pretty clear message but I don't hear anyone calling those well written

Dheibs
11-26-2006, 08:50 PM
i'd say Hunger and Can't Stop get across a pretty clear message but I don't hear anyone calling those well written

i agree. some of stand up is horrendous, some of the lyrics may be cheesy, but in the end, most of it gets a message across to the listener.

dmb2much40
11-26-2006, 08:55 PM
the lws material is fantastic.

akleiner34
11-26-2006, 08:56 PM
Dave can show signs of very good songwriting skills but he is in no way a Bob Dylan or a Tom Waits. He has a very good sense of imagery and the ability to take the listener on a narrative journey through his songs. Dave's current use of imagery is very weak compared to what it was but during improvs he can still write very well. Lyrically SU is an abomination, we all know that. The "ambulance with no sirens improv", 7/16/04 Crazy-Easy and 7/10/04's GGT have incredibly well done improvisational lyrics. I mean compare the motivational speaker angle of that GGT with YMDT. YMDT gets cheesy quickly but GGT(7/10) is almost minstrel-like in nature with its seemingly endless good vibe and relaxed quality. In no way is Dave "done" as a writer. To be a good writer you must focus your energies on writing and make it what you do. I don't think that Dave does that anymore and the only proof I need is the sketches of songs on SU. Those lyrics have inno way been sat down, read through and revised. If they have been, Dave needs to bring someone in to work with him to set him on the right direction again. Those lyrics are the wrong direction and if he doesn't recognize that I am worried that he will always think song lyrics like those are acceptable because they are not.

I got into this band because of Dave's abilities to write. I am a late-joiner having only truly become interested in this band because of You Never Know. I miss hearing things that show what Dave is truly capable of. I was there for that aforementioned GGT and man did it blow my mind. I miss that feeling.

alexbunke
11-26-2006, 08:57 PM
Should be but are not and never will be. That's the point of him saying it's not productive.And that as people change, their songwriting does too.

akleiner34
11-26-2006, 08:58 PM
And that as people change, their songwriting does too.

Very true but it doesn't count as a crutch to rely on to defend sub-par work.

Dheibs
11-26-2006, 08:59 PM
i'd say Hunger and Can't Stop get across a pretty clear message but I don't hear anyone calling those well written

i agree. some of stand up is horrendous, some of the lyrics may be cheesy, but in the end, at least some of them get a message across to the listener.

Dheibs
11-26-2006, 09:00 PM
Very true but it doesn't count as a crutch to rely on to defend sub-par work.

.

akleiner34
11-26-2006, 09:01 PM
i agree. some of stand up is horrendous, some of the lyrics may be cheesy, but in the end, at least some of them get a message across to the listener.

DO you believe the point to lyric writing is to get a point across?

Even if it is-

the delivery method had better not be an embarassment. I could get on stage and sing a line like " I want to fuck that girl" over and over again, you would get my message but in no way would I be a good songwriter.

dmb2much40
11-26-2006, 09:02 PM
the sketches of songs on SU. Those lyrics have inno way been sat down, read through and revised. If they have been, Dave needs to bring someone in to work with him to set him on the right direction again. Those lyrics are the wrong direction and if he doesn't recognize that I am worried that he will always think song lyrics like those are acceptable because they are not.

most of the SU lyrics were written very quickly, as dave was told to come up with them on the spot to fit music the band came up with. the band needs to let dave write songs as he's inspired to write them.

FishMonkeyMan
11-26-2006, 09:02 PM
there is nothing wrong with daves songwriting, there is something wrong with the band's decision making when it comes to when to stop workign on something and put it on an album, and what songs to include, or leave on the cutting room floor. they make bad decisions.. period, end of story.

alexbunke
11-26-2006, 09:03 PM
Very true but it doesn't count as a crutch to rely on to defend sub-par work.I'm not defending anyone, just making an observation.

dmb2much40
11-26-2006, 09:05 PM
there is nothing wrong with daves songwriting, there is something wrong with the band's decision making when it comes to when to stop workign on something and put it on an album, and what songs to include, or leave on the cutting room floor. they make bad decisions.. period, end of story.

very true. dave can still write. see some devil.

dsera
11-26-2006, 09:06 PM
very true. dave can still write. see some devil.
:upyours:upyours:upyours

akleiner34
11-26-2006, 09:06 PM
there is nothing wrong with daves songwriting, there is something wrong with the band's decision making when it comes to when to stop workign on something and put it on an album, and what songs to include, or leave on the cutting room floor. they make bad decisions.. period, end of story.

I am only going to argue that point with this:
There may be a problem with Dave if he can really get on stage perform Dreamgirl and say that he just wrote a good song. He didn't. The lyrics are very poor, completely without structure and almost incoherent-
" a good good drunk"- Seriously, WTF does that mean?

Mersh
11-26-2006, 09:06 PM
very true. dave can still write. see some devil.

3 years ago and as much as I like it about half that album isn't what I'd call well written.

akleiner34
11-26-2006, 09:07 PM
very true. dave can still write. see some devil.

And Cigarette Lit is really fucking well done too. The imagery is stellar and the lyrical development of the song is great.

akleiner34
11-26-2006, 09:10 PM
"The stars stay forever
I hope that I do too
Here tonight with ya'll
Here tonight with you

So cry cry cry, if that's what makes you
And laugh laugh laugh, if that's what does it to you
Cry cry cry, if that's what you need to
And laugh laugh laugh, if you in the mood
Cry cry cry, if that's what you got to do
And laugh laugh laugh, if you want me to
Cry cry cry, if that's what you got to
Laugh. Laugh. Laugh."

Simple. Elegant. And delivered perfectly. That's what I want to see from him.

dmb2much40
11-26-2006, 09:14 PM
3 years ago and as much as I like it about half that album isn't what I'd call well written.

yeah, and neither are a lot of older songs. WWYS - what does that song mean? absolutly nothing. it's got a catchy guitar riff so it was popular. if you look at any album dmb has put out, there's some lyrically subpar songs on it. it's just more noticable lately because there are more subar lyrics than good lyrics.

Dheibs
11-26-2006, 09:16 PM
there is nothing wrong with daves songwriting, there is something wrong with the band's decision making when it comes to when to stop workign on something and put it on an album, and what songs to include, or leave on the cutting room floor. they make bad decisions.. period, end of story.

no what your saying is just part of the problem. you cant tell me his songwriting hasnt taken a huge fall as of lately.

Mersh
11-26-2006, 09:16 PM
if you look at any album dmb has put out, there's some lyrically subpar songs on it. it's just more noticable lately because there are more subar lyrics than good lyrics.

Yes, but some songs are meant to be a bit more fun and I understand that.

exactly, many more IMO.

akleiner34
11-26-2006, 09:16 PM
yeah, and neither are a lot of older songs. WWYS - what does that song mean? absolutly nothing. it's got a catchy guitar riff so it was popular. if you look at any album dmb has put out, there's some lyrically subpar songs on it. it's just more noticable lately because there are more subar lyrics than good lyrics.

:upyours

Dheibs
11-26-2006, 09:18 PM
yeah, and neither are a lot of older songs. WWYS - what does that song mean? absolutly nothing. it's got a catchy guitar riff so it was popular. if you look at any album dmb has put out, there's some lyrically subpar songs on it. it's just more noticable lately because there are more subar lyrics than good lyrics.

.

FishMonkeyMan
11-26-2006, 09:19 PM
no what your saying is just part of the problem. you cant tell me his songwriting hasnt taken a huge fall as of lately.

yes, i can

they dont finish anything anymore. his ability hasnt gone anywhere its the motivation. im not defending that but its also rediculous to say he cant write anymore. the band wants happy pointless tunes, they dont want dark depressing tunes, he doesnt work as hard. its their fault if anyones.

Per553
11-26-2006, 09:26 PM
I am only going to argue that point with this:
There may be a problem with Dave if he can really get on stage perform Dreamgirl and say that he just wrote a good song. He didn't. The lyrics are very poor, completely without structure and almost incoherent-
" a good good drunk"- Seriously, WTF does that mean?

"The stars stay forever
I hope that I do too
Here tonight with ya'll
Here tonight with you

So cry cry cry, if that's what makes you
And laugh laugh laugh, if that's what does it to you
Cry cry cry, if that's what you need to
And laugh laugh laugh, if you in the mood
Cry cry cry, if that's what you got to do
And laugh laugh laugh, if you want me to
Cry cry cry, if that's what you got to
Laugh. Laugh. Laugh."

Simple. Elegant. And delivered perfectly. That's what I want to see from him.


i was actually going on to the almanac to get those ggt lyrics in response to your earlier post. a "good good drunk" means nothing more then "laugh laugh if that's what does it to you." they're both indecipherable. what makes ggt> dreamgirl is a) the delivery is impeccable and b) people can RELATE more to the song a hell of a lot better than dreamgirl. or at least, that's my take on it.

akleiner34
11-26-2006, 09:31 PM
i was actually going on to the almanac to get those ggt lyrics in response to your earlier post. a "good good drunk" means nothing more then "laugh laugh if that's what does it to you." they're both indecipherable. what makes ggt> dreamgirl is a) the delivery is impeccable and b) people can RELATE more to the song a hell of a lot better than dreamgirl. or at least, that's my take on it.

The you isnt sung live after if thats what does it to.

He is talking about getting through, Its easy to understand.

Per553
11-26-2006, 09:35 PM
The you isnt sung live after if thats what does it to.

He is talking about getting through, Its easy to understand.

i was just saying lyrics like "And laugh laugh laugh, if you in the mood" is pretty jumbled taken out of context like the line "a good good drunk."

sometimes i wonder if
"Caught by a wave my back to the ocean
It knocks me off my feet and
Just as I find my footing
Here you come again"

was in a song like seek up or lover lay down people would bash it as much as they do.

akleiner34
11-26-2006, 09:38 PM
i was just saying lyrics like "And laugh laugh laugh, if you in the mood" is pretty jumbled taken out of context like the line "a good good drunk."

sometimes i wonder if
"Caught by a wave my back to the ocean
It knocks me off my feet and
Just as I find my footing
Here you come again"

was in a song like seek up or lover lay down people would bash it as much as they do.

Maybe not, but- The delivery is awful.

Per553
11-26-2006, 09:46 PM
Maybe not, but- The delivery is awful.

right, that's all i was trying to say, no matter how jumbled/ incoherent a lyric may seem, if dave delivers it well, it achieves a certain level of profundity in and of itself and that's exactly what ggt does.

one of my favorite lines "if you're lost, i got a bobble head jesus" makes 0% sense, but the way dave nails it, i completely get what he is trying to convey.

Tambourine Man
11-26-2006, 09:49 PM
Ugh, is this seriously being rehashed again? It seems this is the discussion in every thread.

TheSniper26
11-26-2006, 09:55 PM
Ugh, is this seriously being rehashed again? It seems this is the discussion in every thread.

Is this really that common of a discussion? If anything, this almost seems like a silly question. Sure, some are happier with the current songwriting than others. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that the writing has improved since BTCS.

Per553
11-26-2006, 09:57 PM
i'm done. there's no argument. my only comment is that the apostrophe contract words and therefore goes before "04" and "06." but i have ocd like that and i know this isn't grammar school so whatever, just bugs me a little.

orbs35
11-26-2006, 09:59 PM
DAVE CAN STILL WRITE GREAT LYRICS

HE DOESN'T

NO ONE KNOWS WHY

TheSniper26
11-26-2006, 10:03 PM
DAVE CAN STILL WRITE GREAT LYRICS

HE DOESN'T

NO ONE KNOWS WHY

Half of what makes a good songwriter is inspiration and effort. So to say that he simply chooses not too isn't any kind of excuse. Until he actually writes a really well thought out set of lyrics again, you can't assume he still has it in him. Like Mersh said, Some Devil was a few years ago now...

captainbluntmofo
11-26-2006, 10:29 PM
there is nothing wrong with daves songwriting, there is something wrong with the band's decision making when it comes to when to stop workign on something and put it on an album, and what songs to include, or leave on the cutting room floor. they make bad decisions.. period, end of story.

Yeah he can still write if he wants to, I think he is just so pre-occupied with pleasing the wrong people.